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ANGELUS MOVEMENTS...anybody interested ??

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a friend of mine in germany is thinking about selling those, they are partly not complete...and he has them since several years laying around ....in his old watches and parts box....he is not really a freak....just interested in old watches...and movements........now i just wonder if there could be any intrest for them in here...and if so...what could be a fair price ??

have a look....they are not in my posession....but i could have them.

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hey...please read carefully....they are not complete, but i am sure you could put a nice working one together of them and keep the rest for spare parts...those are not !! 4 working movements....just trying to see what feedback i could get for them...they are still in germany!!

 

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well, they propably would have been worth playing around with them....i really dont want to mention that and i got kind of mad at my buddy in germany...they sold on e-bay for not even 60 Dollars.

 

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I was watching the Angelus movement currently on Ebay. But the RWG members pointed it out that the "clock" movements have rear winding stems which are hard to convert to side winding.

I really would love an Angelus based watch like Enzo's and it's on my broad wish list

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Just so I know, what is the going rate for one of these movments? Thanks!!

skc

 

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Any information that could be helpful to someone wanting to put together their own Angelus project seems to be the big secret here and on other boards. Guys like to post photos of their projects, which I enjoy looking at, but then do not want to share how they got there or what to look for. It's like becoming a high level mason--you are not allowed to reveal the temple secrets

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In another thread I suggested either an FAQ page (so the authors do not get constantly hassled) or the possibility of publishing either an e-guide or .pdf format guide on "how to do it" and tips that would be sold so as to compensate these guys for their knowledge.

These boards are designed as a community, as a place to share knowledge and yet certain things seem to be state secrets--almost like "hey I spent hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours to figure this out, therefore so should you" kind of thing. This attitude seems to extend now beyond the Angelus movement to simple modification of a watch and other manufactured replica parts being used in a project. A very odd attitude that seems to go against the basic spirit of this board and other watch boards I visit, yet there it is, it's currently in place and no one challenges this.

It would be a different matter if finding these movements, then mounting them in watches and selling the end product was the stated business of these people and therefore by sharing secrets they would negatively impact their sales. However, as stated by many this is not the case (WM being an exception).

So what's next? Would it be far-fetched to predict that soon a simple question like "how do I remove the caseback on such and such?" will eventually go unanswered or met with the reply "I spent my time figuring this out and bought several different case back tools in the process until I found one that worked. I'm sorry but I see no benefit to sharing my hard earned knowledge with you" :shock:

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I come here to seek knowledge, to learn, to share with my fellow WIS pals. I have learned a lot simply by reading and discussing things with people on this board and others such as RWG and TRC. I have gleaned by reading each and every thread that I could on the topic (mainly at RWG where there actually seems to be meaningful discourse on this topic) that the movement s/be the Angelus 240. I have saved all manner of photos of both historical watches and replica projects to use as a movement reference. You can also measure the inside diameter of a 47mm case as well. That's about as far as I have gotten at this point as any historical data from OP is pretty generic and only part of their marketing.

So will it really be so terrible to tell us which travel clocks or which clock have the movements we should be looking for? Have you finished with your own projects or is it a case where you personally still wish to accumulate more movements and that is why there is no knowledge sharing? (this question is directed to several people--not just one. There are a few guys here who work with these movements and conversions--not just the one everyone thinks of at RWI

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)

I'm a big boy, so if the consensus answer is no sharing because you all want to get all the movements for yourselves--I can live with that.

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But telling us how to merge them with a case and make a watch, doesn't violate the secrets of finding movements--so how about sharing an FAQ/"how to" on that?

Just my dos pesos.

CISO

 

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Wow....sorry for my noobie question re the Angelus SF 240. I went to find Enzo's original posting on the subject, but I can no longer find the thread.

I sort of thought that one of the points here was that we could share in the same products. Many could have say a PAM 036 with the latest fixins. Ditto on the Angelus project if they were produced heavily in clocks. But I know Enzo has posted on several occasions that the movements are getting harder to find and much more expensive.

But I'm happy if someone would sell me a watch/movement or whatever and I could take it from there?

We're all here to have fun right?? And hopefully not at the expense of others

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Cisco - I suspect the main reason is due to the fact that those who have done it want to make more and thus do not want the price on the correct ones to sky rocket. I had to buy a bad one before I found a good one.

Here is mine - I did not make the watch I just bought the parts.

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Cucumber Jones:

I understand that

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Awesome watch!

Now my second pondering:

Why haven't our friends in the PRC copied this movement yet? They seem to be able to do some other reasonable copies from nothing more than photos.

Yes, I do realize how difficult it would be , but there is a market and as soon as a copy movement can be made, the search for the real one may diminish.

I'd be just as happy with a copy movement because even with the real movement using what is available today--the rest of the watch is still a copy anyway. So choose your poison--real movement and fake everything else or a total replica for a fraction of the price.

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CISO

 

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Angelus 240 movements with winding stems go for around $2000. If you tell someone how to spot them, you push the price even higher. If you see one on eBay and it's at $200 and you tell everyone on RWI, what price do you think it will be an hour later?

Two grand. I'd keep my mouth shut for two grand.

ps. I haven't got a clue how to spot an Angelus cal 240. I would like one, but I'm not in the market for an over-inflated hand-wind. For that price, I can get two decent 7750-based gens, or a gen Moonwatch.

 

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Thanks for clearing this up for me. I was under the impression that the Angelus movement could be purchased for a reasonable amount and hence an Angelus watch could be constructed for say $4-500 more. But if the movement alone costs $2K, then I'm just going to fuggettabouit. Tearing about an old unwanted 8 day clock and creating a watch interests me. Spending crazy money on a vintage hand wound movement doesn't.

 

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I realise that most people hearing about the Angelus imagine it's $100-$200 for a movement and they get all dewey-eyed at the prospect of building a homage. Unfortunately, someone has to come into the thread quickly to crush a person's dreams before they get carried away.

If you're interested in making a vintage-movemented rep, go for the Cortebert or Molnija. They're cheaper and fitting them in cases is much easier.

 

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I realise that most people hearing about the Angelus imagine it's $100-$200 for a movement and they get all dewey-eyed at the prospect of building a homage. Unfortunately, someone has to come into the thread quickly to crush a person's dreams before they get carried away.

If you're interested in making a vintage-movemented rep, go for the Cortebert or Molnija. They're cheaper and fitting them in cases is much easier.

Thanks for crushing my dreams

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How can one read about Enzo's Angelus project and not want one???? But $2K for just the movement is a little crazy if you ask me. I'll stick with GEN 2893-2 and 7750 movements for my projects. Easy to find, and easy to service.

Thanks Pug!!

 

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Enzo:

I do feel your pain. In a completely unrelated thread regarding how a member had created enough of a stir to cause me grief in getting an answer at RWG, I did reference the bs that "the angelus guys" have to put up with. I do understand what you are saying about sharing how to ID the right movements, but would it be self-defeating to contribute (with some of the others who do this) to a standing FAQ on how these fit into a watch or hints of some kind? My thought process is that it's sharing info and will actually cut down on the "how to" PM's?

Personally, I am curious as to why it is so hard if it was a standing movement in these watches way back when. I am curious as to why they aren't a drop in and it will work movement

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I would never pay $2k for one myself or even half or 3/4 that.

Just a thought.

CISO

 

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I have heard this complaint more than once, if you read my e-mail, if would give you a headache. In the light of the PAM203 auction for 1 mill should clue everyone in, that the ANGELUS movement is a rarity. More and more people want it and there aren't any more to be had. The pool is finite. Everyone that comes up for sale is a scramble.

In the past year THIS community and the paneristi have caused even more of an effect. We can blame PANERAI initially for issuing the PAM203 and showing us 150 NOS movements to lust after. An invitation only group of buyers were graced with these ... it only fed the flames.

One year ago, the average High price on a 'correct' movement clock was $300. My best auction was $67 but those days are just not here anymore. Interest, demand has inflated the price of auctions.

When I was buying movements, I had people watching my every move, I had one member here turn into a stalker, another bought a movement from me and then posted and spread the rumour I charged 4X the price I sold it to him - he is now one of the "authorities" that still posts on rep boards.

These are your friends that are sharing and having fun ...

Prior to DEC 2006 the prices on ANGELUS skyrocketed due to all the strain. As an example here are some recent ebay auction ends, the last two were crap movements and are worth maybe $20 if they are in good nick, (just like the ones posted above, which are not and good for the purpose people want them and you OFTEN find people selling them with misrepresentation on ebay, they promote the misinformation that they are ANGELUS and imply they are useful. Look at the movemements above, YOU CAN'T MAKE A WATCH out of them ...

RECENT AUCTIONS:

Angelus Naveo 8 Day 4 Function Travel Companion $689.00 Ended (this clock was broken and commanded $700!)

RARE ANGELUS NAVEO, 8-DAY, 5 DIAL, WEATHER STATION, $2,827.77 Ended (This has become commonplace as the going price and this was a bloody BACKWINDER!)

The price is so inflated that now even the WRONG movements are selling for 10X the price that they sold for 1 year ago.

Tiny Angelus Alarm Clock 17 Jewels Swiss $281.55 Ended

Shelf/Mantel Clock 15 Jewels by Angelus (Swiss) c. 1960 $350.55 Ended

So when people ask me how to spot a correct auction, I decline. I am not happy that I have to now pay $2K for a movement that went for $300 and I will not support inflating that amount higher.

So, it's true. the mantra is, "go Learn it yourself" This hasn't happened just once. It's been common. WatchMaster originally created the Vintage PANERAI market almost single-handed and his inflated retail prices quickly boosted the auction price on Rolex and Cortebert movements, because people saw what you could do with them and suddenly everyone wanted them. These Pocket Watches saw the same inflationary rise, Rolex was further boosted by the brand, but it's price went up with the demand ... Cortebert used to be $50 a pop, [and still that is about what they're worth!]

So fool me once, fool me twice, fool me thrice? No.

Is it selfish? I think it is, and I think it's self preservation. In fact I have got to the point that I don't even like showing the resultant projects. I have shown 3 of the 5 Angelus projects I have made, but I don't think I am going to post the others. Every time I do, I just get more grief for simply sharing something I have done.

That's never enough, I either have to describe how I did it, tell others how to make their own, (which I guess includes the full course of how to be an independent watchmaker) as these projects make professionals go grey. If I won't do that, can I then; Make them one, sell them a movement, sell them parts because they've bought five auctions (Ha Ha I out bid you) but I broke them and now I need parts, do you have any?

Sadly, I am not making this stuff up, this is crap I read in PMs and e-mails. This is why I have removed any intent that I sell ANYTHING, nor do I imply or advertise that I do modification work, sales, parts, etc.

Still, the question remains and gets posted ...

Enzo,

As a newbie here, I'm like a kid in a candy store. I'll go as far as to say that I like some of my reps better than some of my gens. It's definitely satisfying to plunk down $5K worth of hard earned cash for a watch you've been staring at for a few years and can finally afford. (Not that I'm complaining). It's another thing altogether to learn about the movements, the history behind the movements, and to build your own watch. Each day I learn a little more about watches, and crystals, and AR coating, and assembly and disassembly of fine timepieces.

I definitely understand your grief about the Angelus projects and the movements. And I for one will not outbid you on an ebay movement. But it would be nice to one day see or possibly own something similar to what you've constructed. And if your work is to be a proprietary secret, then I fully understand.

But don't stop posting and sharing your work on the boards. That doesn't help anything. I think most people here get it and will stop hassling you for a watch. So please post away and just let everyone know that these are really "one-off" projects, and no you can't simply sell one for $500

thanks,

skc

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My unsolicited advice is that if you intend to lay out a few k for a watch, make it a gen with a real company backing a warranty, not a rep from a party selling illegal, counterfeit goods via posts on an internet forum.

BTW, I am not indicating any individual or entity, but the idea as a whole.

I'm trying to inject a bit of sanity into the outer fringe of this habit we all share

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My unsolicited advice is that if you intend to lay out a few k for a watch, make it a gen with a real company backing a warranty, not a rep from a party selling illegal, counterfeit goods via posts on an internet forum.

BTW, I am not indicating any individual or entity, but the idea as a whole.

I'm trying to inject a bit of sanity into the outer fringe of this habit we all share

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Funny that you say that, but I've had issues with one of my rep watches (keep in mind that I've only been doing this for a few months) and I sent it back and it was returned repaired and I was only out shipping costs 1 way. I think that's pretty good service. When my Rolex Sub TT clasp broke, I was out my watch for 4 weeks and lighter in the pocket by $375. That's gotta be the most expensive piece of stamped metal on the planet, wouldn't you say? What choice did I have but to repair it? But you're right. I wouldn't lay out a few k for a rep........unless perhaps it was an Angelus :twisted:

 

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